Suited face cards

I am having problems with suited face cards on ladbrokes.
Guaranteed when i get KJ KQ QJ suited I am onto a loser.
It seems to follow a pattern with a raise before me and maybe a re-raise after me, flop comes and i hit one of the cards......bounty game just starting.. will continue later...

Just the way the game goes at times m8. Don't worry though they're not actually out to get you. It just seems like that sometimes!

At least i won the bounty

Anyway.....

GlasgowAlex wrote:I am having problems with suited face cards on ladbrokes.
Guaranteed when i get KJ KQ QJ suited I am onto a loser.
It seems to follow a pattern with a raise before me and maybe a re-raise after me, flop comes and i hit one of the cards...

pattern continues with opponent betting or re-raising me to the turn, where a card appears which improves their hand 90% of the time but also gives me more draws.

At this stage I am thinking good hand with high potential, so its a bet a call or a re-raise from now on in.......

GlasgowAlex wrote:

GlasgowAlex wrote:I am having problems with suited face cards on ladbrokes.
Guaranteed when i get KJ KQ QJ suited I am onto a loser.
It seems to follow a pattern with a raise before me and maybe a re-raise after me, flop comes and i hit one of the cards...

pattern continues with opponent betting or re-raising me to the turn, where a card appears which improves their hand 90% of the time but also gives me more draws.

At this stage I am thinking good hand with high potential, so its a bet a call or a re-raise from now on in.......

Lose to 30% dog starting hand..... replay>>>

Alex I have to intervene here m8. Having pre determined plays is a bad idea unless you are multi tabling 10 or more SnG's and you want to put your faith in a system. Forget about certain hands getting you beat or donked or whatever. The RNG has no clue who you are m8 and it seriously doesn't care what cards are on the table when it throws down the turn and riv.

I have banged on about AJ being a bogey hand for me but I still try and play it the same every time as there is no pre determined winners or losers.

It's just a phase. If however you don't treat it as a phase of the game which is natural it WILL affect your game and you will start to lose. I f it really starts to piss you off play something different. Omaha or 7 card stud or just have a day or two off. Gl m8y.

It's very common to get hands such as KJ and QJ beat, braodway holdings don't get me wrong have value, more so KQs than the others, but there strength is also there weakness.

KJ's most common beat is rag ace or AJ,AQ on flopped J, AQ wont fold here with overs that often and with the weaker card hit you tend to find KJ will give pot value and implied odd's to the AQ for a flat call to see turn, QJ's most common beat is a K, and KQ's beat again is the rag ace or AQ on Q flop.

Also broadway hands tend to want to see the turn on a un-cordinated/or low flop board of say T,2,7 or 2,6,9 only having to fold to a A turn or large turn bet when the turn is dry.

The value in these hahands is flopping a great 2 pair or monster draw like KQs on a flop with the same suite AJ, AT, where you have great implied odds to the flopped Ace v rag players.

So with this all said, i'd be looking to play these types of hands in Hi-Jack,CO and BTN with flat calls, and in EP (early pos) through to MP (mid pos) there in the muck unless have some real wild child's in later seats, that said late in the game "image" dependant I will also 2.5x open UTG with KQs.


IMO of cause

Evo397bhp wrote:It's very common to get hands such as KJ and QJ beat, braodway holdings don't get me wrong have value, more so KQs than the others, but there strength is also there weakness.

KJ's most common beat is rag ace or AJ,AQ on flopped J, AQ wont fold here with overs that often and with the weaker card hit you tend to find KJ will give pot value and implied odd's to the AQ for a flat call to see turn, QJ's most common beat is a K, and KQ's beat again is the rag ace or AQ on Q flop.

Also broadway hands tend to want to see the turn on a un-cordinated/or low flop board of say T,2,7 or 2,6,9 only having to fold to a A turn or large turn bet when the turn is dry.

The value in these hahands is flopping a great 2 pair or monster draw like KQs on a flop with the same suite AJ, AT, where you have great implied odds to the flopped Ace v rag players.

So with this all said, i'd be looking to play these types of hands in Hi-Jack,CO and BTN with flat calls, and in EP (early pos) through to MP (mid pos) there in the muck unless have some real wild child's in later seats, that said late in the game "image" dependant I will also 2.5x open UTG with KQs.

+1, nicely put m8, especially the last paragraph

Calling raises with suited face cards is a tricky business.

Raises generally fall into one of 4 categories - medium-high Pair, Medium-High Ace, a nice looking hand that isnt that strong (55, 910s, KQ, etc), or total garbage.

Your suited face cards play very badly against the first two categories:

QJs v 99-AA = 32%
KQs v 99-AA = 36%
QJs v AK-A9 = 38%
KQs v AK-A9 = 39%

Fairly even against the third category:

KQs v 88-22,A8s-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo = 54%

QJs v 88-22,A8s-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo = 51%

And pretty well against the last category..

QJs v K8s-K2s,Q8s-Q2s,J8s-J2s,T8s-T2s,96s-92s,86s-82s,72s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,K8o-K2o,Q8o-Q2o,J8o-J2o,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+,42o+,32o = 66%

KQs v K8s-K2s,Q8s-Q2s,J8s-J2s,T8s-T2s,96s-92s,86s-82s,72s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,K8o-K2o,Q8o-Q2o,J8o-J2o,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+,42o+,32o = 68%

The main problem is that you need to have a fairly good idea of what each person on the table is likely to raise with out of the 4 categories... some tight players will only raise with 1&2, some will include 3, and some will raise with all 4.

If someone is raising with only 1 & 2 then calling their raise is generally a losing play unless they are a) particularly tight on the flop as well - unlikely to c bet allowing you to bluff cheaply at likely looking flops, or b) particularly loose on the flop so that they are likely to pay you off handsomely when you hit big.... Again you need to know if they are either of these!

What im trying to say (fairly unconcisely) is that you need to know a lot about your opponents to call raises with suited face cards. with this in mind its not something id do at all early in tournaments, (deepstacks and rebuys id do it a bit), and not too often in the mid-stages of games, depending on how i know the player in question from the preceding 2 hrs etc.

I'd be much happier with this (fairly simplified) plan:

early doors + ep = fold
early doors + mp + raiser = fold
early doors + mp + limper(s) = fold/call
early doors + mp + fr = fold/ mbe raise
early doors + lp + raiser = fold
early doors + lp + raiser + caller(s) = fold/call
early doors + lp + fr = raise/fold

mid game + ep = fold
mid game + mp + raiser = fold
mid game + mp + limper(s) = fold/call/raise - player/stack dependant
mid game + mp + fr = raise/fold
mid game + lp + raiser = fold/raise player stack dependant
mid game + lp + raiser + caller(s) = fold/call/raise (value/squeeze - player/stack dependant)
mid game + lp + fr = raise/mbe fold

late game its far too stack/player/image dependant to bother with a plan lol.

This is a prime example of what rick and evo mean.

2 hrs at this table, soapbox was loose and bullying...no one standing up to him and he was taking it all.

Ok mad call pre but after 2 hrs my read was good.. id not played a hand for 40mins.

Flop comes, im thinkng he's bet with AK or AQ poss over pair but not likely due to previous a-rag raises.

Call thinking im good... turn ooops ok AQ QQQ over pair.. i paused for 15seconds, and call

River no change.. ok time to think...is he still palying loose or is this his monster...

He bets again.

If he has it, its a snap all in i think.

Well he took 47seconds to decide... this tells me he has either AJ or sod all.

Good read by me... however.....

I will not be doing that agian.. ive never called kj like that before and i hope you can see why...its awful... so many options to beat it especially from wild players.

I just got very lucky.

One of the problems with calling raises with these hands is that it looks fairly weak, and opponents rarely give you credit for a strong hand and are less likely to fold on flops when you bet - this has its merits but you have to adjust your play to suit. In general my plan is: More folding, raising or reraising with them, less calling!!

wildrick wrote:

Evo397bhp wrote:It's very common to get hands such as KJ and QJ beat, braodway holdings don't get me wrong have value, more so KQs than the others, but there strength is also there weakness.

KJ's most common beat is rag ace or AJ,AQ on flopped J, AQ wont fold here with overs that often and with the weaker card hit you tend to find KJ will give pot value and implied odd's to the AQ for a flat call to see turn, QJ's most common beat is a K, and KQ's beat again is the rag ace or AQ on Q flop.

Also broadway hands tend to want to see the turn on a un-cordinated/or low flop board of say T,2,7 or 2,6,9 only having to fold to a A turn or large turn bet when the turn is dry.

The value in these hahands is flopping a great 2 pair or monster draw like KQs on a flop with the same suite AJ, AT, where you have great implied odds to the flopped Ace v rag players.

So with this all said, i'd be looking to play these types of hands in Hi-Jack,CO and BTN with flat calls, and in EP (early pos) through to MP (mid pos) there in the muck unless have some real wild child's in later seats, that said late in the game "image" dependant I will also 2.5x open UTG with KQs.

+1, nicely put m8, especially the last paragraph

Calling raises with suited face cards is a tricky business.

Raises generally fall into one of 4 categories - medium-high Pair, Medium-High Ace, a nice looking hand that isnt that strong (55, 910s, KQ, etc), or total garbage.

Your suited face cards play very badly against the first two categories:

QJs v 99-AA = 32%
KQs v 99-AA = 36%
QJs v AK-A9 = 38%
KQs v AK-A9 = 39%

Fairly even against the third category:

KQs v 88-22,A8s-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo = 54%

QJs v 88-22,A8s-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo = 51%

And pretty well against the last category..

QJs v K8s-K2s,Q8s-Q2s,J8s-J2s,T8s-T2s,96s-92s,86s-82s,72s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,K8o-K2o,Q8o-Q2o,J8o-J2o,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+,42o+,32o = 66%

KQs v K8s-K2s,Q8s-Q2s,J8s-J2s,T8s-T2s,96s-92s,86s-82s,72s+,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,K8o-K2o,Q8o-Q2o,J8o-J2o,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+,42o+,32o = 68%

The main problem is that you need to have a fairly good idea of what each person on the table is likely to raise with out of the 4 categories... some tight players will only raise with 1&2, some will include 3, and some will raise with all 4.

If someone is raising with only 1 & 2 then calling their raise is generally a losing play unless they are a) particularly tight on the flop as well - unlikely to c bet allowing you to bluff cheaply at likely looking flops, or b) particularly loose on the flop so that they are likely to pay you off handsomely when you hit big.... Again you need to know if they are either of these!

What im trying to say (fairly unconcisely) is that you need to know a lot about your opponents to call raises with suited face cards. with this in mind its not something id do at all early in tournaments, (deepstacks and rebuys id do it a bit), and not too often in the mid-stages of games, depending on how i know the player in question from the preceding 2 hrs etc.

I'd be much happier with this (fairly simplified) plan:

early doors + ep = fold
early doors + mp + raiser = fold
early doors + mp + limper(s) = fold/call
early doors + mp + fr = fold/ mbe raise
early doors + lp + raiser = fold
early doors + lp + raiser + caller(s) = fold/call
early doors + lp + fr = raise/fold

mid game + ep = fold
mid game + mp + raiser = fold
mid game + mp + limper(s) = fold/call/raise - player/stack dependant
mid game + mp + fr = raise/fold
mid game + lp + raiser = fold/raise player stack dependant
mid game + lp + raiser + caller(s) = fold/call/raise (value/squeeze - player/stack dependant)
mid game + lp + fr = raise/mbe fold

late game its far too stack/player/image dependant to bother with a plan lol.

I am gonna print this off and take it to bed with me

Alex download a program called Pokerstove it's free and will explain all


www.pokerstove.com/

cool ty evo i will check that out