Any chance I played this wrong?

** Hand # 2968502050 starting - 2009-11-18 12:26:08
** ﾀ5,000 GTD REBUY [3197942]:Table 9 [Multi Table Hold'em] (200.00|400.00 NL - MTT) Real Money

I_RUNFAST sitting in seat 1 with 9120.00
pokerkenny sitting in seat 2 with 5955.00
mozza11 sitting in seat 3 with 13725.00
piessou sitting in seat 4 with 2995.00[Sitting out]
hakansson sitting in seat 5 with 1935.00
piostar100 sitting in seat 6 with 3170.00
Mustibananas sitting in seat 7 with 10040.00
cartier50 sitting in seat 8 with 8765.00[Dealer]
Icepack sitting in seat 9 with 5675.00
sounder1979 sitting in seat 10 with 9060.00
Icepack posted the small blind - 100.00
sounder1979 posted the big blind - 200.00

** Dealing cards to pokerkenny: ,
I_RUNFAST folded
pokerkenny raised to 600.00
mozza11 folded
piessou folded
hakansson folded
piostar100 folded
Mustibananas folded
cartier50 folded
Icepack folded
sounder1979 called - 600.00

** Dealing the flop: , ,
sounder1979 checked
pokerkenny bet - 1200.00
sounder1979 called - 1200.00

** Dealing the turn:
sounder1979 checked
pokerkenny went all-in - 4155.00
sounder1979 called - 4155.00
sounder1979 shows: ,

** Dealing the river:
sounder1979 wins 12010.00 from the main pot

Rake: 0.00

Forgot to add he was French!

Gah !

Such a quandary, do I support the Frog or the Kilt wearer ? !

Liking Sounder's preflop and flop action, still to some his turn call could be seen as dodgy but I am 50/50 about it.

Don't think you misplayed it Khenny.

Preflop raising from ep with AA....it's a tricky subject. With this kind of stack range and AA or KK, I find it very very hard to stop all my chips ending up in the pot at some point. With this in mind I make a slightly larger raise pre, or a limp that i can get away from or reraise. This then means i either play a tiny pot against random hands, or a bigger pot against a slightly more polarised range.

We need to know a bit about how the table is playing - are people calling raises a lot, are there any squeezers who like to button/co raise behind limpers? How is the bb playing? Whats his calling range from the blinds?

Without the latter information, it's incredibly difficult to say how I'd play the hand. I dont subscribe to the "keep your raises the same" bollox online, as no fcker on the table is paying that much attention, lets be honest. And they wont have enough time to watch your play to realise what your difffering raise sizes mean.

(Incidentally in live play, my opening raise from ep or mp is almost ALWAYS 2.5bb+lowest table chip, as I think live people pay more attention to this kind of thing.) Also live a lot less people defend blinds with total junk, ime.

However, online, people call with junk all the time, and with AA, KK, or QQ in ep, a full table and antes, and 20-30bbs, my opening raise is usually more than 3bbs, usually 3.5-4.5bbs. It just gives the blinds slightly less value, and gives you more chance to define his range if he calls. Obviously you get paid off slightly less, but you also get muffed by junk a lot less too. I prefer this arrangement. Obviously I do mix in some limps, especially if there's a raiseaholic wating behind me.

Basically cutting out a lot of "suited connector" calls from co/button/sb/bb is the idea. I get less customers, but tbh i rarely get paid off for my whole stack against 4 5, 6 7 etc anyway, these hands get in on the 2.5bb raise sometimes, and either hit massive or get out. its the A rag callers and two high cards KQ KJ K10 AK AQ AJ A10 that I want a call from, where i'm a) a bigger favourite, and b) theyre likely to stack off with top pair (where 6 7 can fold it).

He might of still called in this scenario anyway.

As i said before, I get less action, but less muffings, and I like it that way. It also means less tricky decisions - as in op - how hard is it to fold AA = very. I dont want a customer on a 3bb raise everytime. It also in my mind makes a bigger stack more likely to shove than a slightly smaller bet - more in pot for him to rob, tho this is very margninal idea lol.

When i have the best hand in poker i want to have a clue what my oppo has is the best i can put it lol.

Anyway... after the preflop raise I might of bet a little more than 1200 on the flop, tho thats prob cos my preflop raise is slightly bigger. As it is, its a rainbow flop, very unconnected, so a good time to put in a milky bet such as this. oppo check calls, so I slightly worried as to his hand, but Im fairly sure were ahead.

I think the turn shove is exactly right, brings a flush and str8 draw, but unlikely to improve opponents hand, so get em in now. If he has set or something, then ul. just vul to find a call from that and have it river you.

Overall although I'd of started off with a raise to 850 or 950, or a limp, after that nothing wrong with the way you played it, whatsoever.

Bainn wrote:Gah !

Such a quandary, do I support the Frog or the Kilt wearer ? !

Liking Sounder's preflop and flop action, still to some his turn call could be seen as dodgy but I am 50/50 about it.

Don't think you misplayed it Khenny.

If you notice the "action" you talk about is in fact not close to being action but is in fact "re-action" to my bets.

I think we clearly play a different style of holdem completely. I can't for the life of me see what is good about his pot bet call on the flop. Had he flopped 4 to the flush on flop I might've agreed and wouldn't have been too surprised to see him re-pop me all in.

I take if you were 50/50 on the turn call you probably liked his call on river for a poor flush draw?

Thanks for the input though m8. I'll file it.

the oppos actions were fishtastic - if he shoves or reraises then fair enough, but to just check call, then call all in is gambling at best.

wildrick wrote:Preflop raising from ep with AA....it's a tricky subject. With this kind of stack range and AA or KK, I find it very very hard to stop all my chips ending up in the pot at some point. With this in mind I make a slightly larger raise pre, or a limp that i can get away from or reraise. This then means i either play a tiny pot against random hands, or a bigger pot against a slightly more polarised range.

We need to know a bit about how the table is playing - are people calling raises a lot, are there any squeezers who like to button/co raise behind limpers? How is the bb playing? Whats his calling range from the blinds?

Without the latter information, it's incredibly difficult to say how I'd play the hand. I dont subscribe to the "keep your raises the same" bollox online, as no fcker on the table is paying that much attention, lets be honest. And they wont have enough time to watch your play to realise what your difffering raise sizes mean.

(Incidentally in live play, my opening raise from ep or mp is almost ALWAYS 2.5bb+lowest table chip, as I think live people pay more attention to this kind of thing.) Also live a lot less people defend blinds with total junk, ime.

However, online, people call with junk all the time, and with AA, KK, or QQ in ep, a full table and antes, and 20-30bbs, my opening raise is usually more than 3bbs, usually 3.5-4.5bbs. It just gives the blinds slightly less value, and gives you more chance to define his range if he calls. Obviously you get paid off slightly less, but you also get muffed by junk a lot less too. I prefer this arrangement. Obviously I do mix in some limps, especially if there's a raiseaholic wating behind me.

Basically cutting out a lot of "suited connector" calls from co/button/sb/bb is the idea. I get less customers, but tbh i rarely get paid off for my whole stack against 4 5, 6 7 etc anyway, these hands get in on the 2.5bb raise sometimes, and either hit massive or get out. its the A rag callers and two high cards KQ KJ K10 AK AQ AJ A10 that I want a call from, where i'm a) a bigger favourite, and b) theyre likely to stack off with top pair (where 6 7 can fold it).

He might of still called in this scenario anyway.

As i said before, I get less action, but less muffings, and I like it that way. It also means less tricky decisions - as in op - how hard is it to fold AA = very. I dont want a customer on a 3bb raise everytime. It also in my mind makes a bigger stack more likely to shove than a slightly smaller bet - more in pot for him to rob, tho this is very margninal idea lol.

When i have the best hand in poker i want to have a clue what my oppo has is the best i can put it lol.

Anyway... after the preflop raise I might of bet a little more than 1200 on the flop, tho thats prob cos my preflop raise is slightly bigger. As it is, its a rainbow flop, very unconnected, so a good time to put in a milky bet such as this. oppo check calls, so I slightly worried as to his hand, but Im fairly sure were ahead.

I think the turn shove is exactly right, brings a flush and str8 draw, but unlikely to improve opponents hand, so get em in now. If he has set or something, then ul. just vul to find a call from that and have it river you.

Overall although I'd of started off with a raise to 850 or 950, or a limp, after that nothing wrong with the way you played it, whatsoever.

Cheers Rick. I thought about the pre flop raise and the table was fairly tight after the rebuy period (plus 1or2 decent players who I know before it gets to blinds) so that's why I didn't raise a bit more.

Raising from there that amount was about as much as I dared as I did WANT a customer but not 2! In the end I got exactly what I wanted and even if I could see his cards I think I was playing this the same after the cards come down.

Gutted at the riv but even worse when I check lobby later to see the chimp doesn't make the money!

LOL

If you had warned us that your op was a bad beat post then I would not have been flippant.



You're not still irked by me playing Q J on Sunday ?

Just so i look like i know what im on about here

+1 to what u both said :-)

Im not saying everyone should raise 4.5bb from 1st position or limp, when they have AA, just that in my style of raising game, I get a lot of calls from suited connectors, etc. When i have a hand thats going to be tricky to get away from post flop, i dont want to mess about with them! If nobody has A9+ or a pair, then nevermind, on to the next hand!

Bainn wrote:LOL

If you had warned us that your op was a bad beat post then I would not have been flippant.



You're not still irked by me playing Q J on Sunday ?

I thought the fact I posted it in the beat section would've provided you with a little hint.

You playing QJ wasn't the best play I've seen but it didn't worry me unduly. I now know what I have to raise to get you off (if of course it's possible) what you termed an easy call with 2 high cards.

khenny wrote:

Bainn wrote:LOL

If you had warned us that your op was a bad beat post then I would not have been flippant.



You're not still irked by me playing Q J on Sunday ?

I thought the fact I posted it in the beat section would've provided you with a little hint.

You playing QJ wasn't the best play I've seen but it didn't worry me unduly. I now know what I have to raise to get you off (if of course it's possible) what you termed an easy call with 2 high cards.

Post up the HH Squire for debate, after thinking about it I had you on the busted draw & reasoned my Jacks and Fives was good.

Bainn wrote:

khenny wrote:

Bainn wrote:LOL

If you had warned us that your op was a bad beat post then I would not have been flippant.



You're not still irked by me playing Q J on Sunday ?

I thought the fact I posted it in the beat section would've provided you with a little hint.

You playing QJ wasn't the best play I've seen but it didn't worry me unduly. I now know what I have to raise to get you off (if of course it's possible) what you termed an easy call with 2 high cards.

Post up the HH Squire for debate, after thinking about it I had you on the busted draw & reasoned my Jacks and Fives was good.

I don't have the HH for it but the fact you say you had me on a busted draw is very interesting.

At what point did my draw bust? When I raised 4/5 times the bb pre flop? Was it when I bet the pot on the flop? How can you put a heavy aggressor in a hand on a draw?

I admit sometimes I have bet a draw on the flop but never a pot bet! Usually a holding bet is played to see where you are or who has what.

As I said though, we clearly play a different style of holdem m8 and if your style works for you then don't change it.

The hand you could've put me on would be possibly AK AQ. In no universe however could you have thought "this guys on a draw" when I have raised pre flop and bet the pot on flop.

Ok, will root through my HH when I get back and post the hand.

In the words of Vincent Vega -

"To be concluded."

wildrick wrote:Im not saying everyone should raise 4.5bb from 1st position or limp, when they have AA, just that in my style of raising game, I get a lot of calls from suited connectors, etc. When i have a hand thats going to be tricky to get away from post flop, i dont want to mess about with them! If nobody has A9+ or a pair, then nevermind, on to the next hand!

Obviously dependant on stack sizes (I want some value should I hit) I'd still call 4.5 with 67s etc. I suppose that's what you want though, Rick?

Great post by the way.

** Hand # 2963415025 starting - 2009-11-15 20:24:28
** sharkpoker school weekly[3183010]:Table 2 [Multi Table Hold'em] (30.00|60.00 NL - MTT) Real Money

o1scott sitting in seat 1 with 7060.00
xbigstevex sitting in seat 2 with 3315.00
BLACKERJACK sitting in seat 3 with 480.00
pokerkenny sitting in seat 4 with 3300.00[Dealer]
Bainn sitting in seat 5 with 3980.00
breastknight sitting in seat 6 with 3305.00
tegurn sitting in seat 7 with 2735.00
Harmony26 sitting in seat 8 with 3825.00
Bainn posted the small blind - 15.00
breastknight posted the big blind - 30.00

** Dealing cards to Bainn: Qs, Jd
tegurn folded
Harmony26 folded
o1scott folded
xbigstevex folded
BLACKERJACK called - 30.00
pokerkenny raised to 180.00
Bainn called - 180.00
breastknight folded
BLACKERJACK folded

** Dealing the flop: 2c, 5c, Js
Bainn checked
pokerkenny bet - 420.00
Bainn called - 420.00

** Dealing the turn: 5s
Bainn bet - 630.00
pokerkenny called - 630.00

** Dealing the river: 8h
Bainn checked
pokerkenny bet - 1170.00
Bainn called - 1170.00
pokerkenny shows: Ac, Qc
Bainn shows: Qs, Jd
Bainn wins 4860.00 from the main pot

Was there supposed to be something wrong with your play there, Bainn? Or was it the comment about draws? Both was valid IMO. Classic 'I've hit nothing' bet by your OP on the river.

To be perfectly honest here Bainn I really didn't remember you had led out after the turn. I was playing 3 or 4 tables that night over and above the forum game so it possibly seemed worse than it actually was at the time.

Although 6xbb with JQ is still at the ropey end of calling imho.

I will just have to dish out something nasty for you this week m8.

khenny wrote:To be perfectly honest here Bainn I really didn't remember you had led out after the turn. I was playing 3 or 4 tables that night over and above the forum game so it possibly seemed worse than it actually was at the time.

Although 6xbb with JQ is still at the ropey end of calling imho.

I will just have to dish out something nasty for you this week m8.

No problem Squire.

As to the "Ropey" call with the Q J, when I call the 165 I am getting odds of 2.5, definitely going to take a flop here especially with loads of chips compared to the blinds.

MADV wrote:Was there supposed to be something wrong with your play there, Bainn? Or was it the comment about draws? Both was valid IMO. Classic 'I've hit nothing' bet by your OP on the river.

Groovy.