should i have shoved pre flop to avoid bad beat part 1 and part 2

part 1
8 players remain mmt $30 200 started 6 seater bl 2/4k +anti
folded to me(30k) on the button i call
sb fold bb goes allin for last 20k i call he turns and hits trip twos... should i have shoved pre. the mzones say yes but a fold by bb would not have been as profitable as his shove.. considering how dominated i had him..or am i wrong?

part 2
.15 players remain $20 bl 400/800 anti 75... i had just doubled up, then dealt in the sb(7900) i call
bb(11900) checks 2k in pot
flop : i bet 2k... bb goes all in..
i call.. he shows
and he hits a straight on the river.. again should i have shoved pre? thank you in advance for your help

Hiya

I've been playing a lot with SNG Wizard and watching lots of tourney Card Runner vids and I must say it's helped me feel more confident about when to fold and when to shove in these spots. I think a pre-flop shove here is the best way forward simply because you can get domonating hands like A-10 and A-J to fold (depending upon how active you've been in general) and with only the blinds to attack need to run into a real rare premium hand to be called and be in trouble.

Part 2: I'm not a massive fan of calling in SB with QJo anyway, but once you bet (and a decent bet) and he replies with a shove I can think of plenty of reasons to fold. It doesn't really matter that you WERE ahead, it's just a grim position to put yourself in.

Defo recomment some playing with SNG WIZ. Good luck.

This man knows his shallots.

Sorry - also should have added food for thought...

Regarding your general "should I shove to avoid bad beat?" NO!!1 A bad beat means you got some dolt with A2 to offer you 20k with a dominated hand! Why would you want to avoid that! More interesting is the question: "Do i want to be the sort of person that limps short-handed with A9s?" or "Do I want to be the sort of person that CALLS off 2/3rds of my stack with A9s?" If it's good enough to call 20k with SURELY you must consider it strong enough to raise with?

Anyway, cheers for sharing. Good luck.

part 1 - If you can see his cards and know sb will fold and bb will shove A2, then you played it perfectly! Thats exactly the situation you want at this stage, and you dont want to avoid this situation at all.

However without knowing that he has A2 and sb folds, there are lots of situations you do want to avoid, and a lot of them start with you limping from the button. The sb might limp too, and bb check, then youre playing a 3 way pot with all manner of ways to lose the pot. Or say sb raises on the steal after you limp, and bb shoves on squeeze, you might fold the best hand. Or if nobody raises and flop comes down without A or 9 on, you might have to give up the pot or lose to a much worse pre hand.

also youre giving someone with a middling hand the oppurtunity to go all in, when you arent that big a favourite - say KQ/KJ 22/33 etc, they might fold to a shove but shove to a limp. You avoid some of these 5050s and 6040s by shoving.

youre basically offering a free flop to 2 players, and with only 7-8bbs, and I'd certainly be pushing pre flop to try and pick up the 2bbs in the middle uncontested instead.


part 2- less clear cut in my mind here, you have slightly higher stackin terms of bbs, and u could possibly raise just over minimum and then fold if you get shoved on - this depends on how the player has been playing, and how often youve stolen his bb previously.

Shoving here isnt a bad play by any means, it's just slightly less profitable than the A9 hand above.

Limping here isn't great, but not awful, it depends how active he's been with previous limps to his blind etc. If he's rarely allowed you or others a cheap flop on his bb, then i might be tempeted to limp with the intention of shoving should he make a small defensive raise. If you limp and he makes a large raise committing himself, or just shove then obv you have to fold. Once you limp and that flop comes down there's nothing you can do really. The only way to avoid this risky kind of situation is to raise pre.

If he's a very tight player then i'd small raise or shove.

If he's average then shove or limp (more likely to defend or call to small raise, and you will be oop)

If he's loose then i might limp with a view to shoving over small bet.

basically you have a lot mroe options with the 2nd hand, and its a lot mroe dependent on the player in the bb and how he's been playing. Hand 1 on the otherhand is a shove 99% of the time imo.

hope that helps!

oh and to the forum!

This man knows his Scallions.

thanks for your help i did feel that about the first hand, shoving.. the second hand as you say was a little more tricky.. and the way i played it i did get myself into trouble...thanks again to you both.