Slow Playing vs Charging Draws

Ok my friend wanted to post but had some problems so I posted for him, he has an account on SPS and has posted before (cookiejar):

Full Tilt Poker Game #21093358447: $12 + $1 KO Sit & Go (162497589), Table 2 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:13:27 ET - 2010/05/24

Seat 1: RevMoon314 (595)
Seat 2: Blind Loyalty (2,870)
Seat 3: iluwa777 (13,051)
Seat 5: taoun (15,614)
Seat 6: SalvoAzeem (5,015)
Seat 7: d13g0ge (3,190)
Seat 8: spbcore_gg (4,717)
Seat 9: AllorNothing84 (8,685)

taoun posts the big blind of 100

The button is in seat #3

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AllorNothing84 [ ]
SalvoAzeem folds
d13g0ge folds
spbcore_gg folds
AllorNothing84 raises to 300
RevMoon314 folds
Blind Loyalty folds
iluwa777 calls 300
taoun folds

*** FLOP *** [ ]
Pot: 700
AllorNothing84 has 15 seconds left to act
AllorNothing84 bets 400
iluwa777 calls 400

*** TURN *** [ ] []
Pot: 1500
AllorNothing84 checks
iluwa777 checks

*** RIVER *** [ ] []
Pot: 1500
AllorNothing84 has 15 seconds left to act
AllorNothing84 bets 1,100
iluwa777 raises to 4,800
AllorNothing84 has 15 seconds left to act
AllorNothing84 raises to 7,985, and is all in
iluwa777 calls 3,185

*** SHOW DOWN ***
AllorNothing84 shows [ ] three of a kind, Tens
iluwa777 shows [ ] a straight, Ten high
iluwa777 wins the pot (17,470) with a straight, Ten high

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 17,470 | Rake 0
Board: [ ]
Seat 1: RevMoon314 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Blind Loyalty didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: iluwa777 (button) showed [ ] and won (17,470) with a straight, Ten high
Seat 5: taoun (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: SalvoAzeem didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: d13g0ge didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: spbcore_gg didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: AllorNothing84 showed [ ] and lost with three of a kind, Tens


Fishy call, or invitation to fish?

$12 SnG, 90 runners, I'm 7th out of 61 remaining.

I would really appreciate any comments! Ok, so this is how I see the hand:

Pre-flop: Quite happy with the raise of 300 at the time, there is no SB so only 100 in the pot. In hind-sight a bet of 400-500 would have chased out any marginal holdings, but only taken down a tiny pot.

Flop: Here I make a pretty small continuation bet, trying to represent a cheap attempt to take down the pot,having missed the flop. With only one caller I am not too worried about the flush draw. When he calls I put him on either a flush draw, a medium pair, or even better he has trip 3s or 4s and is slow playing it. Perhaps even just an A-high hand with the intention of bluffing me off the hand on the turn.

Turn: I check here, trying to give the impression that I have given up on the hand after my bet on the flop. I want to give me opponent the chance to bet, but unfortunately he doesn’t take the bait. At this point my read is still pretty much the same, I don’t figure the 9 to have improved his hand.

River: Time to bet. The river is not a diamond, which is good. However it does put 8 9 10 on the board. I am not too worried about this, as I think it’s highly unlikely my opponent is holding 67, 7J or JQ. I am convinced I have the best hand, so I make a fairly small value bet, giving my opponent the chance to re-raise if he is feeling fancy. When he does re-raise I don’t hesitate to nosh all my chips in. Can’t believe it when he turns over 67.

Any thoughts on how I might have played this hand differently would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Ally
(cookiejar)

OK Ally this is my reply

Firstly missing any notes / information on the table or the game tempo as this might affect your preflop play (e.g. how much u raise if you think a lot of people will fish etc, or limp if nutty table)..I guess you had no info? what was your table image?

Same but for the caller..I guess you had no info on him? (note he is calling the button which could give him a big variety of hands as you raised mid position into an unopened pot and dead sb / 8 man table and he is Very Deep Stack! relative to the blinds, I dont know what your table image is as said before...

Flop: You say the C bet is a bit small but actually its pretty reasonable (more than 50% pot, generally a c bet is considered circa. 50% pot) I like this bet cos like u said it disguises your hand ridicolously and ppl would expect you to bet here with any 2 cards (say a hand like AQ or KJ whatever).

Options:
A pot sized bet would obviously represent an overpair and scare most oppenants away.

A smaller bet I only like as it looks like a weak C bet and might invite a re-pop by a mid pair or nutty bluffer. However because he is so deep I dont think he will be making silly re-pops on a bluff but will be very inclined to call bets that he is valued in (massive implied value) This bet doesn't charge the flush or straight draw appropriately, and most likely does not build the pot size appropriately.

A check obviously doesn't give away any information about your hand, but doesn't help much really unless your sure the guy will bet behind - if you check then it doesn't build a pot, which at this point you need to do because it is so small relative to stacks (need to ensure that the river value bet will be big so start building pot now)

Personally I would have probably bet a little more on the flop than your 400 C bet but it was definately the best option with no information on the guy behind imo, there is 2 draws out there that have to be charged! Straight and flush.

There are probably a few free cards that allow him to catch up the right amount and not overtake your trip TTT (e.g. he has KQ and a K on the turn), but there are also cards that might scare him off or worse make his hand stronger than yours! e.g. a diamond - also remember preflop we had him on a very wide range of holdings because of the position/deep stack call.

So I think personally I would bet 550 or 600 as this achieves the same as a 400 bet but adds more to the pot, possible scenarios:

Any slow played overpair (e.g. JJ - AA) is gtd to re-raise you anyway,
Any unlikely T (unlikely because you have most of them lol) has a high probability of re-raising you because they will be scared of a card higher than T on the turn (e.g. if they have TJ, then they want to end there rather than see a KQ or A on then and also charge the FD, and find out if they are ahead.

A lower set 333 or 444, unknown if they will raise or call here - they might want to charge the FD or take the risk and use their positional advantage to play the turn/river. Pretty unlikely set/over set and you would probably get all their chips if this scenario regardless

A draw (e.g. flush or straight draw) might re-raise you but most likely would call because you are both so deep and he can take a fishy call with position then give up on it if he misses.

Obviously he may also raise on a floating bluff which would be a premium result

So when he calls your bet on the flop, I instantly think he has a straight or flush draw and maybe but unlikely floating (e.g. KQ or JQ)....nothing else. (Did you consider his holdings at this point?)

I agree with you that the 9 most likely didn't help him.

4) Turn
You check the turn but I would have definately bet out (alright I know easy to say in hindsight), but for exactly the same reasons as the flop, except there are even more straight draws out now if he had made a fishy "floating" flop call with a hand like JQ or KQ.

If you bet out it still disguises your hand quite well, but because of his call on the flop I'd be quite confident he was fishing and hence would want to charge him appropriately - rather than have a tricky decision on the river where the flush or straight (or both!) has been completed and he has a bet or re-nosh behind you.

I'd probably bet out around 3/4 pot and expect to take the pot right there.

Granted it isn't a massive pot relative to your stacks but now there is not a lot of cards that could come on the river that would make him put more money in the pot (maybe if he has KQ and a K hits?), unless he decides to bluff the river which we don't know whether he will do or not and won't have the advantage of position to find out either.

IMO slow playing is super dangerous if you are allowing your oppenant to draw to hands that will be stronger than yours (obv straight or flush is better than trips. If you flopped trips with say 77 on a 72J rainbow flop then it is well worth slow playing because there is a lot of cards that will allow your oppenants to get stronger without overtaking you and geniunely thinking they have the best hand e.g. AQ and hits an Ace. Yea?)

The advantage of checking is obviously for him to bet and you renosh - without information on your oppenant though and our flop read (that he is fishing) for me it is too high risk that he will check behind and take the free card.

5) River
He called pre flop, called flop and checked turn so at this point I'm still thinking he has a fishy hand (like the flush or straight draw), so the river bet seems a bit muggedy...there are not many hands he will still be holding (that he didn't raise on the turn with) that will pay you off, most likely he will just fold his missed draw - he might try a bluff but unlikely at this stage of the game

With this information in mind I would probably check giving him a chance to bet his missed fish (hopefully he will put you on a hand like 2 high cards, AK KQ AQ and figure he can only win the pot by betting - then decide he has to bet a big amount..e.g. 3/4 pot or pot to make you fold).
Obviously with the check you risk not getting paid off...but there are not many hands that will pay you off, and the hands that probably would pay you off (e.g. 333 or 444) will definately bet out the river anyway!

I would most likely check-min raise the river, obviously he would then re-noshed I would have most likely called anyway, then been bitter like you lol:)

So anyway you bet out the river and he re-raised, now I would think he was either floating with the JQ with the flop call and rivered the nuts or is on a complete bluff (missed flush or straight draw).

Here I would just call his re-raise (I know easy in hindsight!!) figuring that he would only call my re-raise all in with a stronger hand (or fold his bluff).

There are not a lot of hands that are weaker than yours that will call your re-raise all in at this point...only a lower set would pay you off and the chances of that are low going by the earlier play in the hand.


Pretty blunt I know but that's just my opinions, hope they help

Steve (Hopelesglory Vegasnegative)

I like the way he played the hand cause id prety much be playing it the same until the turn where id have shoved since u dodged the FD and because the board has become very dangerous now.

Sure if he calls the shove result is the same but you wouldn't be posting this now cause u would know you got em in good and done your best by getting em in with odds on ur side.

BTW checking that turn after a CB is a fantastic play in my book on a less dangerous board and v some agro mo fo.

Good luck

I missed a little bit of info from my post, as I lost it the first time trying to convert it and got a bit impatient typing it out for the second time!

- I have just joined the table about 3 hands ago, so unfortunately no particular read on the table.

- This is the first hand I have played at the table.

Steve:

I see what you are saying about betting more on the flop, and against more than one opponent I would probably have bet more as there is more chance of getting out-drawn. However if it was me on the other end of it, I would have folded to a pot-sized bet if I was drawing. Heads-up top trips is a pretty monstrous hand so I wanted to get the most value from it. Outcome of betting big: Massive hand, small scoop!

As you mention if a diamond had come on the turn then I would most likely have given up on the hand, or at most tried to keep the pot small. I guess I kind of rule out the straight draw at this point, as 56 would be a pretty marginal call pre-flop (Well maybe if they were suited it could be tempting) And fishing for a gut-shot on the turn is just plain bad play in my book. Same applies to A2.

Perhaps on the river I could have check-called. The thing with his re-raise is it leaves me with only 2k if I call and don’t nosh all in. Still, 2k is better than nothing I suppose!

As a side note I think if I had played this hand 6 months ago it would have gone differently. I would have played it safer by betting big to charge out draws. The difference now is that I had convinced myself of a possible range of hands that match his play (Which turned out to be completely wrong in this instance!) Before I would have just bet without thinking of the likelihood of him being on a straight draw based on his actions, and just the possibility that he could have one.

Carnivore: Thanks for the response. I think you are right, I got a big fancy for my own good and ended up being punished for it. Should only be slow-playing on a "safe" board. It's funny when you are playing you think you have the most cunning of plans, then it all goes tits up!

Back to basics I think!

Would like to hear from any of the other guys out there if they have something different to add?

Cheers,

Ally

We can all give an opinion on this really........
Fact is hes calling 4outer pre turn for 400,I think hes overcalled pre and should fold the flop board.
(THAT IS SAFETY)overcalling i have a name for chip "squandering" and he is a prime fact of this.
However the guy likes connecting cards which is fair doos but he will be the 1 counting his losses when the financial month ends.
The guy is clearly drawing something and low card hit pair looks doubtful so your putting him on probably flushdraw here..hard to put him on 67 mate as you wouldn,t call the hand yourself pre. You cant evaluate a bad call basically.
I agree with Carnivore the pre river was good but if your putting him on the flusher your basically giving him a free bet as you know.
Very unlucky and keep goin like that with the silent play as I know firsthand the pre river bet there puts many bad players into an allin,obviously not all but I like the style of silent but violent play.
GL AT THE TABLES FROM MUFFWITZ