$15 MTT Hand

Hi there,

Thought I would post another hand seeing as there was a really good response last time (much appreciated).

These kind of hands I can't decide whether I'm playing wrecklessly (and trying to avoid poker playing by pushing all-in) or whether I'm charging my oppenants correctly and getting unlucky...in this instance it cost me the whole game (so probably wreckless)

Details:

• 1:20 hours into the game
  
• Just changed table 2 or 3 hands ago, not much info on the new table players, however there is not much pre flop raising and quite a few limpers
  
• I haven't played a hand yet on this table
  
• Unfortunately the william hill history doesn't appear to show stack sizes, but the players in the hand all had approx 2k-2.5k)

Preflop Betting:
Player 4: Fold
Player 5: Call 160
Player 6: Fold
Player 7: Fold
Player 8: Call 160
me(Hopelesglory): Call 160 ()
(D)Player 1: Fold
(SB)Player 2 - 80: Fold
(BB)Player 3 - 160: Check

Pot is 720

Flop:

Flop Betting:
(D)Player 1: Folded
(SB)Player 2: Folded
(BB)Player 3: Check
Player 4: Folded
Player 5: Check
Player 6: Folded
Player 7: Folded
Player 8: Bet 480
me(Hopelesglory): Raise All-in 2370 (Queen 8 Hearts)
Player 3: Call 2370
Player 5: Fold
Player 8: Call 1715 All in

Player 3 shows: (Flush) and player 8: (2 Pair)

The flush held up to win and I went out of the tournament.

Now I'm about 75% sure it was a bad play however there is a lot of factors surrounding it...e.g. was it just bad luck the small blind had a flush, or did I not even give myself a chance to find out/get away from anyone who has a flush.
A call might have also led to seeing the next card...which if a club would mean I could get away from the hand. Plus I had no information on the players so a call might give me opportunity to find out more (I also would have had position - and I have enough chips to get away from the hand if unhappy with the situation)

Or was it a good play because I was charging the other players the maximum to chase a flush...
[I figured the raiser for a hand similiar to QK, QJ or Q10 with maybe the King/Jack/Ten of clubs or any hand with the Ace of clubs and maybe a mid pair(e.g. Ac7d), a flush he would have probably slow played, especially as a limper I would expect him, if he hit the flush, to have AceRag both clubs or KJ, K10 of clubs - which are all strong enough to slow play]
...and also potentially representing that I had one club (e.g. Ace of Clubs as I limped) and was hoping to take down the pot without a showdown - with the flush draw as a back up, if this was the case then a lot of weaker hands may call (e.g. any Q or 78) and pay me off. Otherwise I might take down the 3.5k pot without a showdown or if there is a flush I still have full house outs (Q or 8 or 77 ~ 16%)

Could it be considered unlucky that someone else on the table flopped the flush or is blaming luck a poor excuse?

In heinsight I wish I would have just called as the all in was an unneccessary risk (maybe I could do this if I was way over the other players in the hand), and then either played the next card or folded to the big blinds all in push/next players call as it would have been a safe assumption that i was behind...then could have continued playing with a ~2k stack. That I think would have been the safer and more profitable play. (Seems easier to play in hindsight!)

Any opinions appreciated (Assume you are loose like me and called preflop!) - don't be scared to be critical, it's the only way I learn.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

just unlucky.

standard.

however player 8s call is bad.

hopelesglory wrote:[...]

Any opinions appreciated (Assume you are loose like me and called preflop!) - don't be scared to be critical, it's the only way I learn.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

I'd have raised pre, but that's because I'm loose aggressive, not loose passive. As for the rest of your hand, I think the all in is fine for online play. People say "you're only getting called by a better hand". That may be true in some games, but not this level of online mtt play. I think, as Kunk said, you were simply unlucky.

Move on, next hand!

As the most successful poster kunku's opinion is certainly to be valued but i tend to disagree that its just an unlucky hand and i think your right to believe that this scenario warrants only a flat call so you can hopefully get to see the turn and make your house or at the same time get the option to fold if reraised from the players left to act. (Of course thsi all goes out the window if its a small buy in turbo!)

With so many limpers its almost inevitable that someone has flopped the flush although always believing the worst is out there can lead to playing too tight scared poker.

I like Mad(as a hatter)V's approach of taking control of the hand and hopefully that thins the field down or takes the pot down preflop and although not for me i can see the merits in this style of play.

Surprise surprise i'm folding preflop and surfing some more porn as i dont subscribe to the any 2 suited scandi fish limp unless they are properly connected or maybe one gapped.

Anyway your style is obviously to play these hands and take a few cheap looks and thats ok if it suits you but i must finish by saying i think you chose the worst/riskiest of the limited options you had available. When sucked into these hands from the BB i have even mustered a clean fold there and then but the flat call is the one im going for.

Hope this makes some sense and helps. Cheers and gl

If this was a cash hand with lots of history on the other players I'd be more forgiving, but for me this simply isn't a playable tourney hand.
You're opting to play (with position, granted) multi-way with a hand that needs SUCH a specific flop to love action post-flop that it's just too big an ask in my books. You're also not deep stacked enough to take bets and raises without getting pot-commited quickly.
If you consider Qh8h good enough to call with in position then surely you HAVE to come into this pot with a raise to punish limpers, send out a message to the players, and also give yourself other ways to win (or at least learn a little about their range if they call or 3-bet). Make it 400 and you surely get rid of 4cTc in the SB so end of story there. MAYBE 7s8s calls and then stacks off to your bigger 2-pair. Who knows about the other limpers...
All I see is you in a 4-way pot potentially losing to 77, 88 (who might NOT raise in early position in a 4-way pot) and the flush, and also having two cards to come against anyone with TJ, 9T, J9, 56, 45, cc, etc. Again - in cash - bring it on if that's your bag, but in a tournament, there HAVE to be better spots than this to even give away 160 of your precious chips.
As they say; "Never go broke in an unraised pot" - hope your luck improves!

Hi guys,

Thanks for your responses, some really interesting views (very timely also)...I especially like the idea that I should either be folding or raising preflop (never even crossed my mind before) due to the available pay offs relative to stack sizes (i.e. if your limping tactic is to hit a big hand and get paid off [and hence fold if you miss] you need to have a big stack [and your oppenant needs to have a big stack] to make it worth while) or aggresive tactics where you raise and have a chance of taking the pot right without a fight, then if necessary play a flop with a potentially smaller field.

I'm happy that the post flop play seems quite agreeable

Steve

If you're going to play this kind of hand, you're going to run into this kind of situation. Thats the implied risk of limping with suited trash (no offence).

I'd hope that if you were in player 8s position, even with your 2 pair, nevermind his, you could lay it down to a bet and a shove.

however I dont think there's much wrong with your play, as long as you accept that sometimes a guy behind you will have flush/set/bare A or K and call.

If it had been a smaller bet to you, I'd of been inclined to control the pot size and flat call to see the turn, then mbe push on that, giving bare Ac less chance of calling with only one to come. however the large bet size isn't really one you can just flat call imo, and so it's shove or fold - I'd probably shove too.

The first thing that strikes me about this hand is that you have 15bbs, and you're limping. There are very few times when limping with less than 20bb is a particularly profitable play. ep monsters mbe, but certainly not a hand where you cant really stand a raise, nevermind repop it yourself.

Secondly, I'm not overly keen on limping with Q8 no matter what the blinds are. 78 plays better by far, as you have no "ive hit top pair but don't know where I am" issues. I know they have a name, "3 Gappers", but thats just another word for "virtually unconnected". by all means raise with them if you have the chips, but limping with them isn't great, you just need such a perfect flop to play them post.

In this spot if it was folded to me, I'd certainly be playing, with a 2.5bb raise.

However with 15bbs and 2 limps before me, I think a raise is a touch risky - you're going to have to make it at least 4bbs ish to give yourself any chance at all of picking the pot up, as both limpers have HUGE value to call a smaller raise. You're then faced with the prospect of a reraise behind you or even from the limpers (one of whom has limped 2nd pos from a 12bb stack, always worrying), and having to lay down with a third of your stack in the pot.

So limping is out imo, raising is a tad too risky, so that just leaves the fold for me.

having said all that, once you do limp, and the flop comes down as it does, you're put in a tricksy spot, and probably chose the right option with a shove. As mentioned tho, if it was a smaller bet to you, I would of just called and tried to keep the pot small until turn.

also as mentioned, 8 7 makes an horrific play, and i hope you stuck a note on him to remind you of his ability to limp garbage from early from short stack, and then call an all in on flop when clearly in awful shape!

In general I try and avoid these tricky situations with a short stack, and wait for a better oppurtunity.

Oh and lastly, if you have 25bb plus here, then do whatever you like with Q8 pre flop! its just the stack size thats the problem - you dont have enough to be fcking about, but you have too much to be risking it with Q8 pre.